This interview is one of many that I recorded as part of my never published book which took place in 1985.  I donated the cassette tapes of the interviews to the Boulder Carnegie Library in 1986. — S. Byron Gassaway

Bob Miller

A couple of things in the ‘60s were very stunning to me. The very first hippies to come through Boulder in 1967, ’68, or ’69 were harassed terribly by the local populace and the government. This was a very, very conservative town. The politicos were very conservative. Some of them changed and are still around, and some of them are no longer the politicos.

The police department was extremely conservative, and it was small. The town was small. I remember when Crossroads Mall was just pasture. Everybody will tell you that Water Street, which is now Canyon Boulevard, was nothing, just a little dirt road. The train tracks ran across town and the police station and municipal government, everything, was located in one building where the City Council meets now.

That was everything. The D.A.’s Office, the police department, the City Council, the City Manager, everything was located there. The harassment the hippies or long hairs received was unbelievable! Early on, some of them got arrested for, if you can believe this, walking a dog without a license or having dogs without licenses and were jailed because they didn’t have identification on them. The dogs were put in the pound and they were jailed. It was nuts!

They were getting busted regularly for hitchhiking. If they had a dog with them, it would be impounded and they would be jailed. Denver was worse, if that was possible. It was pretty conservative all over. It actually took a lot of guts for these kids to face the kinds of things they faced because Boulder County and the state were very conservative.

Everybody thinks of themselves as liberal today, although people aren’t that different now. They just changed with the times a little bit. The same kind of people who used to do one thing because it was “in” to be conservative, today drive a Saab Turbo with a bicycle rack on top. You know, a thousand dollar bicycle outfit on to go out to eat type of thing.

The vagrancy statute was enforced pretty regularly against these people. They arrested a bunch of hippies and charged them with vagrancy. I got called because I was doing some ACLU volunteer work. There was me and maybe one or two others working for the ACLU. There were several people involved, but only one or two actively involved.

The ACLU was very active back then trying to put a stop to this kind of thing, and I ended up representing some of these people charged with vagrancy. They were arrested, and their crime was not having visible means of support, basically. Research of the statutes showed that it was a very improper statute.

Myself, and a couple of law students took it to a three judge Federal Court and had the state statute declared unconstitutional. It was good because it declared a very unjust statute unconstitutional. It was a very emotional victory. It was a statute that had its basis back in ancient, very ancient times, long before the Constitution of the United States was written. It was a way of keeping people to work on the lord’s estate. It was illegal to go into the next province because, if you didn’t have a visible means of support, it was a crime. So you had to stay on the land. Anyway, it was brought to America and passed in almost every state. Ours was the first one declared unconstitutional. They all fell after that one.

If the Establishment didn’t like someone, there were sufficient grounds, usually, to bust someone. They were enforcing a lot of statutes and municipal ordinances in a very illegal and unjust way. For example, there was an ordinance against jaywalking, which is very appropriate and has very valid reasons, but if you only enforce it against certain people then it is being used unconstitutionally.

There were several ordinances (in Boulder). There was one against sitting on the sidewalk. We had that one declared unconstitutional. There were a number of ordinances that were knocked down. There was small nucleus of eight or nine lawyers that took on these cases.

What was your primary motivation for taking these cases as opposed to more lucrative ones?

They weren’t lucrative, for sure. It was interesting and it was exciting. And it was something else, too! The laws were very unfair. I know it sounds a little strange to say that. I am speaking the truth when I say that they were unjust and they were unfair and that those few people who fought them, fought them because they were unjust and unfair. There really wasn’t any limelight, at least initially.

I got involved with the vagrancy case when some people got picked up for walking their dogs without a leash and got thrown in jail. I called the ACLU and said this is terrible and (asked them), “Do you want me to do anything?” They said, initially, that somebody was handling it. Then some other people were arrested and I got called in and asked if I would talk to them. This was eight or nine o’clock at night, and I said “Sure!” As it turned out, the vagrancy statute got quite a bit of publicity.

It’s also interesting to some people, for whatever psychological reasons, to represent the underdog or take on the Establishment. At the time, the Establishment was very, very conservative, and representing hippies or long hairs was certainly viewed as taking on the Establishment. That had all changed by ’73 or ’74.

There were several years, four or five years when this town was incredibly conservative In fact, the lawsuit which was filed was against the Chief of Police and the Police Department, requesting that they be ordered by the Federal Court to stop this kind of activity.

Any other court system was the established Old Boy system, and the judges were very conservative. There was one judge who would sentence people, and before he’d sentence them, if they had long hair, he would bring them up and he would say, “Come on up here so we can get a full view of this!” “I think you should come back next week and let me reconsider my sentence or think about it.”

He knew he couldn’t say to them, “Cut your hair or I’m going to give you and extra five years.” That would have been taken up immediately. He’d be sure to say the right things on the record, like “Let’s get a full view of what’s going on here. I want to think about my sentence for another week.”

There was something about marijuana cases and young people that drove some judges crazy. There was one up in Fort Collins that just went through a whole charade with a Boulder lawyer. The Boulder lawyer was Paul Snyder, and he had Paul up there and he said to his client, “Well, if I gave you probation, would you walk the straight and narrow?” The client said, “Absolutely!”

The judge said, “If I gave you probation, would you do this?” “Yeah, I really would.” The judge kind of looked at him for a little while. It was like a Steve Martin sort of thing. The judge said, “Nah! I don’t believe you.” And he gave him time. I mean, real ugly, sick kind of stuff. The judge goes through this , “Maybe someday the world will be wonderful “ routine, sort of like on Saturday Night Live.

And they were doing that in Boulder. The Establishment was not very pretty. Back in those days, it was kind of tough to stand up to the populace. Judges were elected and were up for reelection every four years. The D.A. and everybody sort of fell into that.

Stan Johnson got some decent Deputy D.A.’s and they did the right kinds of things. Then the Public Defender system got started. Initially, back in ’68 or ’69, it was just the ACLU handling these guys when they first got arrested. If they busted 14 or 15 people at a house and arrested all of them, they would all call the ACLU. I was, at that time, doing most of the ACLU legal work here. They might turn them all loose the next day, but my phone would ring all night. The cops loved it. Somebody would say “I want to call my lawyer.” They’d say, “Absolutely. It’s two o’clock in the morning. Call your lawyer.” And the phone would ring all night. But it changed.

Judge Hanson really, really stood up for the rights of people. I’ll give him a lot of credit. I think there was a lot of pressure on him and he always tried to do the fair kind of thing, regardless of what the person appeared to be. There was an incredible amount of harassment by locals.

Do you think that the Establishment, the conservative people that had teenage kids or college kids, kind of eased up this pressure on the judges as their own kids started to get busted?

No question that when an Establishment person had a son or daughter arrested or everybody in an apartment got arrested for two joints and got turned loose in two days – No question that they suddenly opened their eyes. That was part of it. When they got harassed and the whole apartment was torn apart by the police, everything changed.

Another part of it was that, just gradually politics generally changed with the influx of people. As a result, the power structure changed. There was the whole City Council upheaval with Pen Tate, Tim Fuller, Gwen Dooley, and Karen Paget. The power structure changed. Of course, it went back and forth a couple of times. But that was the first big break that made a lot of major changes.

How much did the 18 year olds voting have to do with that?

That was major. That was really important. Young people got out and their was a huge upheaval of the political scene. It was really exciting, actually. Very exciting.

That’s all changed now, too, because that is the Establishment now. The sort of knee-jerk Liberal Bouldonian is the Establishment today. But when they came into power, it was really an exciting time.

Something else that was exciting was that the Public Defender system went state-wide by that time. So Boulder finally had a Public Defender Office and they became a kind of nucleus also. There were three or four or five lawyers that, in conjunction with the Public Defenders, were kind of fighting this fight and gradually created change.

Certainly, the political structure changing had an effect on the fight change. The court system changed too. Rex Scott came in as a District Attorney. He made some really major changes. He was a decent kind of guy, actually.

Stan Johnson got elected, and was fairly conservative, but then brought in some fairly decent deputies. Then Rex Scott got appointed to the bench, and that was just a breath of fresh air. In his later years on the bench, he took a lot of heat from the Press. But early on, he was everybody’s darling. And legitimately so. I really have a lot of respect for him, personally. He’s the only judge around here who has received a one hundred percent endorsement from the Bar Association. That means that everybody thought that they got a fair shake from him, even when they lost. He was really a breath of fresh air. Even the D.A.’s felt so, the defense lawyers, and the defendants.

He would listen. He was concerned. He’d go down to the penitentiary and listen to the inmates in there. In civil cases, he would listen with concern. It was good. And the judges on the bench changed too. One or two of them retired and one or two of them kind of changed over a period of time. And they woke up!

There were some that were really steadfast and terrific. One of them was (Judge) Hanson. I mean, he and I had our battles too — but I’ll give credit where credit is due. He stood up and did the things that he thought were right. It is to his credit.

I guess the main thing I want to say is that it a was kind of crazy, turbulent time. I remember the riot up on the hill when the shopkeepers were going to get together and beat people with baseball bats. They had a big meeting. Some people had to go up and explain to them that they had entered into a conspiracy to violate people’s civil rights and that they were very close to having people call the FBI and file some complaints against them. And that did it! It stopped right there. Nobody wanted to get at that level and they suddenly realized what they had done.

I, along with others, was not unsympathetic. It was real tough to be a shopkeeper at that time on the Hill. It was a touch time. But that didn’t mean that you could go and take a baseball bat to somebody you didn’t like! They had to learn to try to work with people. Somebody had to explain to these people that they had violated this federal statute.

Once you say it, you have to pray that nobody goes and does it, because then you are going to be wrapped up with it. And that was explained to them. It was during the period of real turbulence. A real ugly time! Of course, the hippies weren’t all wonderful people. But there was a larger issue. They didn’t have to be wonderful people. The ACLU doesn’t represent people just because their hearts are pure. As a matter of fact, usually it’s the other way around.

They were busting people for walking on the wrong side of the road. I represented a guy who was a world class race walker in training. He worked at the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR), and his wife (also) worked at NCAR and she was a terrific sprinter. And he was arrested and jailed because he didn’t have his wallet with his ID with him and for walking on the wrong side of the road. You have to walk against traffic.

The 18 year old vote changed things and Boulder County just grew radically. And most of the new voters were attuned politically in a different way from the traditional Boulder voters. People realized that they had to change if they wanted to be part of what was going on.

Do you remember when S.I. Hayakawa spoke at the University of Colorado and John Butney threw the chair at him?

Hayakawa, I think . . . I represented one of the people charged and Dick Dana was the prosecutor on that . . . I think Hayakawa really manipulated that crowd. There was the whole political thing of the campus radicals and that was going on at the same time as the love and peace kind of trip. They had some campus sit-ins and were arrested and the university got an injunction to keep them out. They took over one of the buildings and so they were arrested by the police.

Clancy Sheehy said that the police had people with cameras across from the Brillig Bookworks taking pictures of people entering and leaving the building and had undercover, plainclothes people come in and try to buy pot.

I don’t doubt that at all. There’s no doubt in my mind. I don’t recall the specifics, but I know they photographed any kind of marchers or demonstrators.

Paul Howes, who was in SDS, said that their offices were broken into, but all that was taken by whoever broke in was the list of names and addresses of the members of the organization.

I don’t doubt that either. There were probably people at the federal level doing that kind of thing. I try not to be real paranoid about things like that, but I’m convinced that in Boulder during that period of time that there were a number of people who were working with the government (who were) actually encouraging certain acts of civil disobedience. Not necessarily violent acts, but disobedience, either to get themselves in more favor and move up the ladder and to get in a bigger position of power, or else to get certain people arrested — or else to write more detailed reports and get more money. I don’t know.

But there’s no doubt in my mind . . . I mean, I’m convinced myself, that if I wanted to trace some people down in retrospect, I think I probably could. But I have neither the time, energy, nor inclination to do it. I think that there was a certain professor at C.U. who was acting as an agent-provocateur back then. But I don’t think there was some massive conspiracy or scheme.

Another thing I find interesting is the conflict during that time between the established powers and the newcomers, if you will. Most of the hippies weren’t drug dealers of any kind. Pot was the common usage or the common factor that gave the cops the “legitimate” grounds to bust them after they couldn’t bust them for sitting on the sidewalk or walking on the wrong side of the street . . . or walking around town without (an ID in their wallet).

It was kind of interesting that a joint was a felony. Until that changed, it was really crazy. They were turning the country into a generation of felons with what was happening. They created a generation with no respect for the law. Some people joined the mainstream and some dropped out. You can find them down at the Trident Café now. Sort of latter day, aged hippies hanging out.

How much social stigma was there to getting busted in the ‘60s? Paul Danish said the father of one young man who got busted in Boulder in ’63 or ’64 committed suicide because of the bust!

Incredible! Early on from ’62 to ’64, it was really crazy. By ’67 or ’68, it had changed radically to where smoking or getting caught wasn’t such a stigma. But it was a real fight to get someone out of it without a felony. Walking around with a joint in your pocket was a felony . . . and the cops knew they’d find something if they could just get a phonied-up excuse to get them. It was anything from jaywalking to imaginary kinds of offenses.

Did the police ever resort to planting dope in people’s homes or cars in order to bust them?

There was some bad stuff going on. There was one particular informant-provocateur who worked for the cops who was really a disgusting human being. God only knows what he was doing. He was doing terrible stuff. He’s still kicking around.

I don’t think that, as a matter of course, any drugs were planted. I don’t think the cops were doing that kind of thing. There was usually enough around that they didn’t have to plant it.

I think one of the things that brought about major change was the Public Defenders system. Not only did they initially have sort of really idealistic people, and a lot of them had left private practice where there was a lot more money, but it brought some real continuity to the nucleus (of lawyers) that was fighting this kind of thing. It wasn’t (any longer) just five or six lawyers who were kind of doing some legal things, but now there was an organization where there were a couple of lawyers on payroll that were fighting and keeping track of these various cases and were in communication with other lawyers and did volunteer work for the ACLU. It really made a big difference.

Was Boulder unique in having these high-quality public defenders?

They were absolutely first-rate – the best of the best. But Boulder wasn’t unique. Early on . . . all of the public defenders . . . I don’t want to put down the present public defenders . . . some of them are really terrific lawyers. But it’s more of a just straight profession now. Then, there weren’t nearly as many it it was more of a spirit of “us against them.” Early on , the public defender system was the best. The lawyers were the best, they fought the hardest, and had terrific reputations as excellent lawyers. We’re talking the very best! It was such a pleasure to work with them and they were up until all hours. They would petition to get some guy (in jail) some granola because he wouldn’t eat Frosted Flakes. And gradually the judges changed and sort of cooperated. I say cooperated — meaning that they started doing their jobs.

How do you see Boulder as different in the ‘80s from how it was in the ‘60s?

It’s real different! Physically, the town is a lot, lot bigger! And it has changed a lot. Pearl Street was a neat place. It really was a neat street. Now there’s the Mall.

They didn’t have bike racks when I was an undergraduate here. They didn’t have any bike races around here. If they did, nobody ever heard about them and nobody went to watch them. That was in ’61 and ’62. There was a little corps of mountain climbers, a little corps of cowboys, and different kinds of people.

Just like CSU changed and used to be the Aggies and a lot of rodeo guys, a big vet school and big aggie school, and changed and became a “Yup” kind of place – so did Boulder change radically. It’s a lot larger. It’s changed. What used to be the rodeo arena, the Pow Wow, became a LaBelles and now Best. There’s no more rodeo in Boulder County. But they still have the trappings.

They used to have the parade down Pearl Street and they used to have sidewalk sales. So they had a sidewalk sale last weekend, which was the same day they always used to have the Pow Wow. It was a great rodeo.

Politically, it’s much more liberal. The county is more liberal and the city is certainly a lot more liberal. The population is larger and I think the judges are, on the whole, better. The Public Defender system is well-established. The DA isn’t a vicious kind of guy. They have an office over there and you can talk to him. He’ll listen to you. It’s a lot easier on a lot of levels. You’re not fighting the pettiness and the craziness and the anger. I guess bicyclists and motorists are as big a conflict as you have around here. It isn’t like someone wanted to run someone else off the road because they had long hair! And that was crazy!

It was really violent because of status, not because somebody was in your way or they were bothering you, but because of status, because of appearance. Superficially, the town is a lot more understanding and accepting. In fact, they make a fetish out of it. It’s part of “Bouldonia” accepting what’s happening.

If it was so conservative, why did people come here as if it were Haight-Ashbury or something?

There was a real tolerant university / liberal type of community – a real tolerant liberal core here. I don’t mean that Boulder was one hundred percent conservative. Let’s say that it was sixty percent conservative. The remaining forty percent core of understanding people in Boulder, the city (not the county) — because the county changes those figures pretty radically — is a lot of people. That’s a lot of support!